Battles; Our Bread and Butter

[Seigmand Dezmar]

Hey there guys and girls alike. So, I'm going to be touching on some sensitive subject matter and I may step on some toes with what I going to say. That being said, anything that is said that you may take personally is NOT DIRECTED AT YOU!!! If for some reason you feel I'm jabbing my finger at you while I comment on this, then my apologies.

So we all know that we use many different methods to direct our story, both that of our individual characters and the main plotline. One of these major methods is our battles. Whether attempting to settle an old score, facing a new foe, or just an excuse to show off some cool moves, almost all of us need to rely on combat at one point or another.

With this being said, I would like to make a few suggestions that I feel could help the overall experience when it comes to battles. This is of course an open thread so feel free to voice your opinion on these suggestions.

1)Please guys, no hidden powers. The profiles for me at least are a handy go to spot to find exactly who I'm fighting and what they can do. So it can be more than a little frustrating when suddenly people are pulling moves out that seem to be totally out of the blue. I'm not saying you have to detail every single attack you have, but if you have a transformation, list it. Is your weapon's magical, then list it and what it lets you do. And remember, the more detailed you are the better it is for everyone. Merely saying, "I can transform and get more power" is adequate, but as you add to it with physical descriptions or what GETS powered up when you transform it's easier to visualize. This brings me to my next point.

2)I've seen everyone on this board has the skill and ability to write vivid sentences that help convey how a character moves, speaks or acts. When it comes to dialog or inner character thoughts we get a better picture of exactly who your character is the more descriptive you are. The same can be said for when you fight. It can be really easy to fire off a quick and simple explanation for how your character blocks an attack and counters and have it make sense to you because you can see it unfold in your mind. The rest of us though sometimes need just that extra bit of written word to not only understand what your character did, but to appreciate it ourselves. When a multi leveled attack comes at someone and they reply with, "[insert name] dodges the attack swiftly before leaping towards his foe with an strike" the other person has got to wonder; how'd they just dodge it so easily? If an attack is fired from long range and you merely dodge it and attack with a close range strike, then how'd you get up close so fast? It's things like these that really help flesh out a good solid fight.

3)I'm not sure if anyone has done this or not, but if a battle ends on the essential defeat of one party, and this is the kind of fight where both sides are looking to kill the other, than please have a solid reason for why the defeated person doesn't die. I'm sure we've all seen our share of animes where the main character gets horribly beaten by the major villain only for the guy to just kind of walk away like he got bored or something, thus leaving the main character the chance to get stronger and eventually beat the same villain later. There are a ton of much better reasons for a fight to end before the hero can end a villain's life or vice versa. A few examples;
-a new fighter enters the battle
-the person never actually wanted to kill the person but merely wanted something they possess in which case say what
-someone heals the weakened fighter, putting him in an advantage over the opponent
-something more important comes to the stronger fighters attention and they must attend to it in which case say what
-the stronger foe believes you beneath him and sends minions or something weaker to "finish off" the beaten warrior
Like I said, these are all sensible reasons for a life and death fight to be postponed or ended but not the other guy saying, "You aren't worth killing" or "I want to see you get more powerful" because real villains with an end goal don't want their enemies alive.

4) This here is where I'll probably get the most flak for this post, but I believe it needs to be said. There are a few moves, no doubt inspired by the very animes we all love that are totally cool to watch. The problem is that a few of these are what I would dub, "Mary Sue attacks". They're unfair, completely disregard the other fighter's skill level, or worst of all seem like a really cheap and anticlimactic way to end a fight. Before I go any further, I'm not saying that no one should do these. Just that a pm should be sent to the other player before you say your character does these.

a) The warp behind: it's one thing to dodge an impressive attack your foe just sent your way. It's another to dodge the attack, then do something to move behind them with such speed that you catch their flank completely unguarded, basically saying your character is too fast for the other person to even see you. Teleporting is a different matter if anyone does this, but if your character can just run or jump fast then it can be annoying to just assume that.

b) The "I win" move: you know the one. It's that move a character does where they wind up in front of yours with their weapon pressed right against your body in such a way that says, "I just killed you, except I held back for whatever reason". Again, this is one of those moves that completely ignores the other character's skill and ability, essentially saying that the other one is stronger and better than yours. Worse yet you can't get out of a move like that as the person is essentially a mili-second away from killing you.

c)The near death power up: this is more of an anime cliche that makes no sense outside of the genre. Again, if you have in your profile some sort of move or attack you can only do when you're near death, that's fine. But having a character beaten within an inch of their life only to get up and be stronger than before is annoying, nonsensical and well, uncreative. The same can be said for the flashback influenced epiphany where the person remembers something about their past or something their master says as they lie on the floor bleeding out, thus giving them the insight to do a super move they could never do before.

I guess what I'm saying by and large is that a battle is like any other thread. We need communication from start to finish. What do you want to accomplish with this fight? Who should win, if anyone? If someone is going to almost die, then what will spare them? I understand that we all love our characters and want to see them at their best; triumphant and strong. Yet we also need to remember that there's always someone stronger, and that should they find themselves in a battle against a more powerful foe, it can't end in a tie or a tit-for-tat styled encounter. Someone in most cases has to lose and most of our fights ARE life or death encounters, especially as the big Sumata vs Heroes battle is none too far from happening on Earth.

So end points. Sorry for the length, but for any tolerant enough to read this send your own thoughts on this. I only ask that no one gets into any specifics. No referencing specific threads where someone did something; that's just going to end badly. That being said, thanks for hearing reading my thoughts on this.

[glitters]

Hmmmm...

*nods at #1* I do verily agree with this. Mind you, some powers and techniques characters pick up inside of the game itself, so their powers will be constantly changing. Unless we got the characters to change their profiles or write up in a sub-board in the RP Lounge area (or better yet, the Bio/Intro area) with the newly updated attacks/powers? idk if everyone would go for that or not...

I'm not sure I agree entirely with #2, however. *shrug* I like getting the story pushed along, I like writing stories, but personally writing action/fighting scenes aren't my forte and I tend to get easily lost when people either write so much or expect me to write so much. It takes me forever to write fight scenes because it requires so much focus on my part (even when I'm writing very little) and as most of us know, I seem to have borderline ADD.
Unless you mean we can do things like "*long-ranged fighter attacks close-ranged character*" and we reply with, "She moved swiftly, barely dodging the attack, and then ran forward ready to kick him in the face"...?
Because some of us honestly can't write a lengthy description about how we used the "simple" knowledge of physics and were able to use this person's pressure point as a weak spot to first attack, and then grabbed them by this other spot because "simple physics" make them lighter when you lift them and when you push your body in this direction in this way the velocity "simply" throws them like, 100 feet away.

You know, because of "natural" physics that "everyone" should know but none to few of us have taken a.) A physics class, b.) have but don't remember anything from it, let alone care (I know physics can bite me - Chem all the way!), or c.) taken a martial arts class where you are apparently taught this stuff XD (don't hit me, don't take it personally, I'm JUST SAYING)

3.) I say that if the villain is stupid enough to let the hero live, let them. It's the player's decision, and it's the villain that gets mocked OOC. If the player has a problem with it, then they should change the way their character deals with that kind of thing XD

4.) a.) What if it says in the character's profile that they ARE very fast? Perhaps not fast enough to disappear at lightning speed, but what if they ARE fast enough to show up behind you quickly enough? Other than that, sounds good to me.

4.) b.) I do agree, unless it was stated in a pm or other form of OOC communication that this IS how the battle is to go.

4.) c.) I was going to say simply "sure, I agree," but then thought it out and realized that dammit, if I were the villain I'd be just a little angry having this happen.
Again, UNLESS IT WAS DISCUSSED OOC BEFORE THEN.


*shrug* Idk, I do agree with most of what you say, though.

[Donovan Siroaki]

Holy crap! Okay, lot to respond to here.

1) I can see several reasons for the lack of characters power being flushed out in there intro/bio screen, and they are as follows: the person was just to lazy to put them in, the person wasn't entirely sure what he wanted for his characters powers initially, but realized later and just never saw it necessary to put it down, or that the person made a specific effort not to put their powers down to avoid people meta-gaming their character when they fight them. (And i've seen people meta-game on here, nobody tell that this is just some bold claim without any evidence.)
I can see how moves being pulled out of the blue can be frustrating and can make it seem like the person is making stuff up based on the situation circumstances, but I say as long as the power doesn't diverge too much from the persons other powers, then I personally don't see any problem with it. An example of such would be if a person who said they possessed Aquakinesis also, without other players knowing, possessed Cryokinesis. There is a logical link to both of them that makes for a sensible use of both power without the need of an explanation.

2) Exposition is a fantastic tool, and I absolutely love when something has good exposition to describe what is happening before me. As for being over descriptive, it can be complicating at times and I know i could very well be a person who is guilty of this in my battle posts with Onyx. (And yes, any good martial art teaches you about the combination of physics and human anatomy. It's awesome! XD) The trick is to find a happy medium in which you describe everything you think is essential for the other person understanding (and your own enjoyment) but make it simplistic enough that the person isn't having to read it multiple times or pull out their secret decoder ring to try and understand even the gist of what you're saying.

3) I say if someone wants to let a hero live for no real reason, then whatever, but if they should decide to put the effort forth and come up with something that makes it plausible, then all the power to ya. I think that the "I'll let you live for whatever reason, Mua ha ha ha" thing is just a lazy way to push things along, and should someone decide to use it, I really don't care, but a little thought and creativity goes along way for making things more interesting and believable.

4a) A staple move from animes, and I can understand it's frequent use considering how many shows use it, but there is several things to take to heart when you think about this maneuver and what series use this. This is used, first and foremost as a means of cheap animation, the only reason they can get away with this is making series about people who grow exponentially stronger over extremely short spans of time, such to the point that normal movement is for pansy mortals and people who can't destroy plants. I know I'm being analytical about this when that maybe isn't the best way to look at it, but this is once again, another thing about anime that convinces advocates of the genre that it's just fine to be uncreative. BTW, anything I say is from a logistics standpoint and holds no malice, derision, contempt or any other nasty word that one may try and use to describe what I've said. If you feel this is directed at you, I think that says more about you than me. I'm here to analyze and respond, not start petty quibbling over assumed finger pointing.

4b) To do the "I win" move without consulting the person you are fighting against first is like the biggest F-you you can give someone. You are effectively saying that that persons character is so much weaker than yours that at any point, they could gut you without any opposition on you behalf. This is something that should only be done when it has been agreed upon as a feasible means of ending the conflict in question.

4c) I think John and Jess have hit the nail on the head with there comments. Anything I say will just be beating on an already perfectly hammered nail.

A lot of this stuff to me seems like a shortcut that provides the illusion of creativity in your posts, but to the trained eye, is just the ripping off of cliched moves and lazy story advancers that any anime Shonen anime watcher is far to familiar with. I haven't read to many of the battle threads that have been created, so I'm not sure if anyone has used these, but i would implore you, if you have, to strive for some creativity and move away from the low budget attacks, and lazy story progression tactics.

[Mark Angelus Fri]

Not sure about you guys but this makes me think this should be titled: Fight like I fight.

1: Having a hidden power is perfectly fine, what’s fun about fighting if you have nothing to surprise your fellow rper? This is coming from two years of rping.

2: Okay, I agree with the detail.

3: Having a reason for not killing you is a good idea, just for the sake of the plot.

4: Being a mary sue is indeed a rule breaker, have you played Final Fantasy? Those attacks are what we call limit breaks where at the weakest point you unleash your energy as a last ditch offense. Like my Ain Soph Aur.

[Yeligar Maelstrom]

This is what I am going to type and I am only going to type it once (this is for EVERY PERSON ON THIS FORUM!):

Your guys *and Jess* are setting some Guidelines, which I like to see people wanting to help the forum . Getting back, some I agree on and some I do not. I am not throwing my two cents because if people start to get angry and say stuff like "this is how it should be" or whatever related crap, then you will force my hand, so I do not want to side with anyone. But if you have a plan fight with someone, PM them to ask "Can I win?" Etc. Now, if you want your character to fight someone on the other side, and you do not want them to die, PM the other person, or come up with an idea and PM it to the other people.

Any complaints when you are fighting someone, PM THEM! that is how most threads halt to a screeching stop, because the players are not talking to each others.

I can not stress this out enough, PM OTHER RPERS! I know that there are some people that do that, but there are some that doesn't PM people about how the fight ends, mainly they ask to have a fight with them. But also remember, do not ask about everything, let the other people surprise you to what they can/are going to do.

That is my rant for PMing, because that is how most problems in fights occurs.

To Sum it up (And I read this on this thread before) PM if you have a request, have a question about someone's move, character etc. , or a problem.

[glitters]

I totally agree with you Mark except for, well, first, your proposed title. ^^; don't look at it that way, they're just making some suggestions and if anything, listening and even trying some things out might enhance your playing experience~ :3

But that's not what I was really going to write here. What was I going to say that I DO agree with you except also for #1. Talking from five years RPing experience, I've actually found not only in this RPG, but in the several others I've been in for it to be incredibly annoying when people attack with a sudden move that you'd never even THINK they'd have.


But something that would indeed fix the problem would actually be exactly what Volk said right above. He's repeated it SO many times, and it's the most magical thing in the entire world.

PMING. What is that? PRIVATE MESSAGING. That's how we communicate on here, that's how players discuss things, that's how things run smoothly. As far as I'm concerned, fine, we don't NEED to write in our hidden powers in a profile but for the love of everything holy, let the other person know what on earth you're doing before you do it.

^__^ Because, it REALLY sucks when your character goes to attack the other? And suddenly the other character who may or may not have been weaker than you suddenly whips out a laser gun and ZAPS YOU INTO OBLIVION AND STEALS YOUR SOUL and the whole time you're flipping through pages going "WTF THAT SO WASN'T IN YOUR PROFILE HOW IN HELL COULD YOU DO THAT?!?"

K, I exaggerated that very much so. If someone did that they'd be a sue, but you get what I mean, right? D: So I DO agree with Seiggy up there. And even moreso, Volk XD;;;


VOLK'S SHARING THE MOST IMPORTANT MESSAGE OF ALL IN THIS - TAKE NOTES, STUDY, THERE WILL BE AN EXAM ON THIS.

[Yeligar Maelstrom]

Fine, It will be a 3 question exams
1. What is your name?
2. What is the most important thing to use to communicate on here?
3. *worth 98% of this exams* what is the Max air speed that can be reached by a virgin raven?

[Seigmand Dezmar]

Okay, wow I was not expecting the level of response in only a day's time that you guys have given. I was going to wait for a bit before I said anymore but I think that some comments, concerns and advice are worth looking over and saying something about.

1) First of, Jasmine makes a great point in that yes, this is a long running saga of many characters where over time people can get new weapons, powers and upgrades to their overall arsenal. I personally love the idea of updating one's profile when this happens, as it takes all of three minutes or so and it can be otherwise too hard to keep track of every single person's personal story and power ups. There are more than a few characters that while reading a newer post I saw do something I never knew they could do or pulled a weapon out they didn't have only for someone else to tell me, "Oh they did a thread that explained all that." Again I want to stress that NO, I don't think you should write out every single attack you have. Just the larger concepts of your characters powers. A good example is that yes, Seigmand does have an ultimate attack, but its still just a geomancy attack, so no why would I write that out. However, if your character can do something or has something that opens up a whole new ability or power you wouldn't have otherwise than I think it's fair to ask that you have that written down somewhere. That way the finer nuances of your attacks can still be a surprise but it doesn't make everyone else feel like you're BSing in the middle of a fight.

2)I think this is something that we're all in agreement over. Donovan put it best I think. We want to have enough to get the main point of a fight across; the proverbial what, where and how of combat without it getting bogged down with too many details. No, we don't need great explanations on HOW exactly the physics allowed you to create a blade beam by the speed of your weapon creating a vacuum, etc etc. That's probably more that what's ever needed. So moving on.

3) Again Jasmine does make a good point. Yes in the end if the player wants their character to do something completely stupid and out of character of them, then in the end that is still their choice. But I think one thing that I've noticed is that people are only considering if a villain does this to a hero, but the plain truth is that the good guys can be just as guilty of this too. If a character is a total tough guy and ruthless in combat only to wimp out and not kill a villain lying helpless before him that makes just as little sense. Just as it's an anime cliche for the villain to let the good guy live because he wants to see the boy grow or whatever, its equally bad for the hero to spare the bad guy because of something like, "Killing puts me on your level" or "Everyone deserves a second chance" unless your character has a kinder personality. If a character can kill a band of evil thugs without a moment's hesitation then they should have a better reason for not killing the boss controlling the minions he just killed.

4)Yes, Volk here has the best advice to help solve this whole dilemma. PRIVATE MESSAGE PLEASE! Again, it takes no time and it instantly stops people from getting upset. But please remember to pm before you post what you're doing. I know from personal experience that if someone posts something and then messages afterwards to ask "is that okay?" or "I want to do this" than it still isn't the same because if you don't like that you have to be the bad guy and make them alter the post. It saves everyone time and annoyance to do this. Again just a suggestion but an important one to me.

Lastly, a point I feel I have to make as I did get called out on it. Yes, I have played many many RPGs including Final fantasy, the Tales games, and many more. I do know what a limit break is, and a union move and even desparation moves from games like King of Fighters and Street Fighter 4. But the main thing to remember is that these are game mechanics. They only exist to balance a video game and make it more fun, not because that's how real people would fight. After all, what fun is it if you can use your best attack at the very start of a fight? You'd just kill everything but bosses before the fight even started.

What I was getting at is why should a character have to wait till they're almost dead before they can use the attack/transformation? Do they have to use their own blood as a medium? Do they need to go unconscious so another personality can take over, thus meaning only this personality knows how to do the move? If a reason like this doesn't exist than it doesn't really make sense. Furthermore is there a cost associated with doing this move? If it's a last ditch attack than it would have to be for a good reason or the character wouldn't wait so long to do it in the first place. I would personally think that in a real battle doing your best move when you're at your weakest is like trying to run a marathon when you just fled for your life for miles and miles. Sure you might do it, but at the very end you'll likely pass out immediately or die from the strain on your body. I'm not actually directing any of these questions at anyone, they're just something for anyone with this sort of move to think about.

So that being said, I'm still keeping this open in case anyone wants to comment further, either with suggestions of their own or to add on what's been said already. Remember that in the end this was made and is still made to be suggestions ONLY, merely existing to offer ideas on how to make fights more enjoyable for everyone. No one is telling anyone what they should do, aside from the pming suggestion.

[glitters]

1-3 = AGREED!

Last two paragraphs of #4 verily much agreed on, too. If I (and I mean normal, human Jess) had the ability to shoot lasers from my fingers, I'd SO use that right off the bat if I were ever in a bind.

Like...someone would be like "hey, watch where you're going" and I'm like "dude, I didn't do anything to you - screw off"
and then they're like "Oh, you wanna go, you little *insert whatever name they feel like calling me*"

and I'm like "YEAH, BRING IT."

And before they throw the first punch I'd SO burn their trousers off XD;;; Or burn "LOL" in their forehead or just blast them whatever. And then RUN.



I know it makes no sense but srsly, I think it's an example that helps get the point across ^^ In a REAL fight, I'd use my greatest attack first and then DITCH LIKE A COWARD.



And as said above, it's not like anyone's saying "HEY YOU. Do the battles EXACTLY LIKE THIS" because that's uncool D: Srsly, if you've planned out a battle to be dragged out that long before someone does an ultimate, then by all means do it like that. No one's gonna stop you ^^

[Miri, EarthGuard]

Okay.

I knwo this is mostly over and I'm a little late to the punch (as always - *sigh*)

But... about the Limit Break thing - YES. Seigmand does have a point. Why wait to use your most powerful move until last.

I do agree that there oughtta be reasons. But, really, why are we nitpicking on this? It's a forum. People are here to have fun. We're here basically for the same reason as people go to play video games. So... why do we care if someone does somethign like have a desperation move/limit break/last-ditch attack? They're cool. And since in a fantasyworld physics are stretchy, the Rule of Cool wins. So what if I have to have taken enough damage to make me really angry before I use my strongest move, and I don't have a better reason than that? It's pretty much the same - if I just ran around popping off attacks that cause a volcano to erupt under someone's feet just because I can every five minutes, people around here are going to get annoyed.

In short... I think that while, yeah, it's cool to come up with a nice detailed reason for your Limit Break being such, there's a fine line between 'making guidelines' and 'nitpicking on peoples' RP styles because YOU don't choose to follow them'

I'm not trying to accuse or insutl... but that's just my opinion, not as an admin, but a person.